Which Hamas propaganda are we talking about?

The same Hamas propaganda that says:

*kill Jews round the world
*kill Jewish children round the world
*the last day will not come until the trees cry out “O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me!”
*all Israelis are ‘legitimate targets’
*we love life more than you love death
*our children are willing to become ‘martyrs’ and suicide bombers
*US Christianity is controlled by Jews (or “Zionists” if you read Stephen Sizer’s books!)

No – the evils were Hamas doing that, and Israel still firing when they knew it was a school – repaying evil for evil. One evil act does not justify another.Just because Hamas were firing from a position, surely the need to prevent innocent deaths meant that Israel should not have returned fire. There are better ways to draw people out – this way just makes the Hamas propoganda look true.

I agree that Israel should stop building settlements, that though is no longer relevant to the Gaza situation!

You wrote

“Also, to criticise Israel is not anti-semitic; to question the 1948 UN mandate is not anti-semitic; to argue for the rights of palestinians to live in a sovereign territory is not anti-semitic; to question the wisdom of civilian deaths in the Gaza strip is not anti-semitic; to not accept a link between the biblical Israel and the current state of the same name is not anti-semitic.”

Noone said it was!

So nice to hear you recognise Hamas is an illegal terrorist group (unlike the Rev Stephen Sizer, who allegedly attends conferences with Hamas reps and plots the downfall of the world’s only Jewish state).

The point above by Stephen is that Israel’s justification was based upon its legitimacy as a UN-mandated and recognized state, so my point is that it should have higher expectations than a guerilla organisation such as Hamas, and that if it claims legitimacy from the UN mandate, it should follow UN guidelines.

If Israel kept to the pre-1967 borders then it would help to bring in some of the wavering groups who at the moment are being pushed into the arms of extremists.

Also, to criticise Israel is not anti-semitic; to question the 1948 UN mandate is not anti-semitic; to argue for the rights of palestinians to live in a sovereign territory is not anti-semitic; to question the wisdom of civilian deaths in the Gaza strip is not anti-semitic; to not accept a link between the biblical Israel and the current state of the same name is not anti-semitic.

I believe in the right of all people to live peaceably. I do not believe that a lasting peace can be achieved by this sort of armed action – it can only drive people into radicalism. I do not believe that repaying evil with evil can solve anything (and shelling a school with women and children sheltering in it is evil – sorry).

You said:

“Israel is a UN chartered country under attack by Hamas, a fundamentalist terror organisation turned governement of Gaza.”

If Israel were to go back to the UN chartered borders, rather than illegally occupying land not part of that charter then I think they would have a lot more moral authority. By being complicit in land settlements, as well as outright occuplation, they have not acted wisely at all.

Also, it is quite wrong to equate the current secular UN-mandated state with any biblical notion of Zionism. Israel has a right to live in peace, but it would have much more of a moral case if it kept the pre-1967 borders.