DESPITE A LACK OF EVIDENCE to support allegations of homophobia made against Paul Shinners of Cornerstone, St Neots, bloggers in the UK, Spain and the USA have continued with their campaign against him, leading to further business disruptions, according to a series of reports in the Hunts Post:
- Cafe closes again in wake of protests, 17/1/2013
- St Neots cafe owner demands apology from bloggers over “defamatory” comments, 28/1/2013
- Bloggers offer to talk to St Neots cafe owner over anti-gay comments row, 4/2/2013
Although there appeared to be no threat to the shop at the time of the demonstration, which was relocated to the Market Square and which I attended, staff nonetheless felt intimidated and did not open for business on the day; and a special needs volunteer group that had been involved with Cornerstone has withdrawn:
Hunts Post, 28/1/2013: St Neots cafe owner demands apology from bloggers over “defamatory” comments
The accusations hit Cornerstone Café hard, Mr Shinners said, with staff having to shut the shop in Cambridge Street on two consecutive Saturdays because they were being subjected to abuse from people who had seen the blog.
Some have even left permanently because of the abuse, he added, including a special needs volunteer group who “saw the stories and didn’t think it was the right environment” for them.
Mr Shinners, whose Passion for Souls group frequently travels to Rwanda, Kenya and Uganda to provide help to people in those countries, is unsure whether he will be able to return to Uganda if people interpret his actions as being supportive of anti-gay legislation.
Instead of apologising, the bloggers see their campaign as justified and have continued to post increasingly aggressive demands for explanations along with accusations of lying and, most recently, supposed “proof” in support of their allegations:
- Daniel B Law, UK, 15/2/2013: Proof Shinners is part of a Fundamentalist Cult!!!
- Barry Duke, Spain, 14/2/2013: Why, oh why, are we being kept waiting for an explanation, Mr Shinners?
- Melanie Nathan, USA, 13/2/2013: U.K. Preacher Paul Shinners claims he could have stopped the Anti-homosexuality Bill in Uganda
Rather than allow himself to be goaded or drawn further into what appears to be an ever more acrimonious campaign, however, Paul has responded with a simple, “God bless you”, a response that has been greeted with open contempt by the bloggers.
Reports Elsewhere (most recent first)
- Cambridgeshire: Cafe owner calls for apology over allegations of support for Ugandan anti-gay bill: Pink News, 28/1/2013
- UK: Cafe owner accuses gay campaigners of targeting him for a 2nd time over Uganda trip: Pink News, 17/1/2013
- NHS and gay rights get campaigners out: Huntingdon, St Ives & St Neots Town & Crier, 14/1/2013
- Campaigners take to the streets in NHS and anti-discrimination rallies: Cambridge News, 12/1/2013
- Paul Shinners: Kill the Bill Uganda, 10/1/2013
Shinners told the press he asked me for an apology. He did not. I challenged him on the lie. He said he would answer my questions for clarity regarding his statements in Uganda. He gave a few feeble meaningless answers. He refused to answer the clarifying questions. The record speaks for itself., What Paul Shinners said in Uganda cannot be erased. He said it! Now he needs to apologize to the LGBTI community in Uganda and the UK for his participation in stomping for the Kill the Gays Bill.
Melanie, in the course of your email exchange with Paul dated Jan 9th, Paul outlined the damage your blogging had caused: if that exchange doesn’t carry with it an implied invitation to apologise, I truly don’t know what does. Do you really need the words “you must apologise” spelt out? To accuse him of lying on this basis is churlish at best if not disingenuous: the fact is that you’ve got the message that he’d like one; and you’ve declined, loud and clear.
What evidence do you need, beyond the record of what Shinners actually said and he has admitted to it, as well as the stage he shared – being with those calling for the Kill the Gays Bill. Now he is trying to explain it away in less than clear terms. It is very usual for those who want to Kill Gays in the name of Christ to run for shelter when things heat up. I dont see Paul Shinners any different to Scott Lively Lou Engle and the rest of that form of Christianity which do the real loving affirming Christians any good.
No evidence? In a Uganda Monitor article titled “Calls to pass the anti-gays Bill dominate New Year messages” Mr. Shinners is reported as being there, as commending Uganda for their Kill The Gays Bill, and as saying their plan – to legislate the death penalty for homosexuality – would bless Uganda:
I would call that ‘evidence’ of homophobia. What would you call it?
And now he doesn’t understand how “people interpret his actions as being supportive of anti-gay legislation” ? Really? He commended them for the bill!
Go read for yourselves: http://www.monitor.co.ug/News/National/Calls-to-pass-the-anti-gays-Bill-dominate-New-Year-messages-/-/688334/1655670/-/11vv8ob/-/index.html
Phil, thanks for the update. I don’t accept newspaper reports as evidence because I’ve seen so many stories that later turned out to be incorrect. I have no idea how reliable the Uganda Monitor may be, is it more reliable than British newspapers?
It seems unfair to judge someone on the basis of a newspaper article without providing any real evidence.
No one is judging Mr. Shinners on the basis of a newspaper article alone. When asked about that particular Uganda Monitor article he is quoted in, Mr. Shinners has indeed admitted to making those remarks. His word would be the ‘real evidence’ you are looking for I believe.
The Ugandan Monitor is a more reputable source than a tiny local UK paper. Paul has just manipulated the Hunts post to cover his tracks. It’s disgraceful!
Actually Shinners admitted in an email to me Chris Jefferies that he did indeed make those remarks, he does not deny them. He tries to explain it away, yet fails and then when I ask clarifying questions – like “what did your mean by “PLAN” ” he has refused to answer. So he does not deny it. I can prove it anyone who wants my emails feel to request same at commissionermnathan@gmail.com
Seems to me that Mr Phil Groom is of the same ilk. The Evangelical model of affirming love towards homosexuals. Perhaps Mr, Groom so clearly one sided would like to answer these questions posed to Mr. Shinners prior to the response “god bless you.” .
1. Do you believe the bible is the word of God ?
2. Do you believe the practice of homosexuality a sin in the eyes of God?
3. Do you believe homosexuality a choice?
4. In your opinion should homosexual couples be able to marry and adopt?
5. Have you ever heard of or met Pastor Martin Ssempa?
6. Was your salary approximately £39,000 last year?
7. Was your trip to Uganda funded by your charity?
8. Before contacting the Local UK newspapers to protect your reputation, did you give ANY thought to the people IN Uganda who have seen you’re statements supporting the bill (in the following article) and make any attempt to contact THEM before or after the UK papers?
http://www.monitor.co.ug/News/National/Calls-to-pass-the-anti-gays-Bill-dominate-New-Year-messages-/-/688334/1655670/-/11vv8ob/-/index.html
Do your homework, Melanie: you’ll find my attitude to homosexuality very clearly spelt out on my personal blog, philgroom.wordpress.com. Homophobia is a choice; a person’s sexuality and orientation rarely so, although some people claim to have changed their orientation: their voices must also be heard.
More to the point, however, homophobia is a wrong choice that Paul Shinners has very clearly rejected, as you well know and as previously reported here, Support the Gays Protest relocated as St Neots Christian bookshop owner refutes homophobia allegations:
Why do you find such a clear statement unacceptable? Why do you, Cathy and others of your ilk (whatever that might be) persist in giving more weight to a second-rate piece of journalism that takes a quote out of context, doesn’t even spell the man’s name correctly and incorrectly assigns the honorific “Rev” to him? Do these inaccuracies not set alarm bells ringing for you — or would you rather overlook the shoddy reporting in order to pursue a witch hunt? Upon what basis do you demand explanations and hold Paul Shinners accountable to you?
To me, Melanie, your campaign against Paul has all the appearance of a “throw enough mud and some of it must stick” vendetta. If you have clear evidence of homophobia then, please, out with it; if not, then please stop your mudslinging.
Cathy is right: Paul’s word is the real evidence we need; and we have it in his statement above.
I’ve now read through your email exchange, Melanie, as published by Daniel B Law, albeit under a somewhat misleading title: Help STOP the “Kill the Gays” bill NOW!!
… and I’m puzzled: why do you misquote the Daily Monitor?
Here’s what they wrote:
First, in the 3rd email you correct their misspelling of Paul’s surname:
Then in the 6th email it becomes:
So you, Melanie, incorrectly attribute the words, “The Bill is a clear stand for God” directly to Paul whilst blithely ignoring — and now dismissing — his explanation from earlier on in the correspondence, 4th email:
You present yourself as a professional human rights activist, albeit in a private capacity. Perhaps a little more attention to detail and a little less denial of the contents of your own correspondence might be helpful to all parties?
I contacted Shinners under the assumption that he was innocent!! He showed himself to be dishonest and evasive. I only sought the truth. If he is so innocent why has he not explained himself? River church openly admit to a literal interpretation of the bible! I have updated my blog with further information. Everything i said in my blog is accurate. Paul Shinners has had 6 weeks to give a single of evidence proving his innocence. If anyone has any i would gladly read it. I am not closed minded. If I am wrong, prove it and i would gladly apologise, but if not i am the one who is owed an apology!
Please read my blog for the latest post…
http://time4change2013.blogspot.co.uk/
Daniel, I’ve read through your blog at some length and, far from seeking the truth or assuming Paul Shinners’ innocence, it seems to be much more the case that you have appointed yourself both judge and jury, find him guilty of homophobia on nothing more than the flimsy basis of a piece of self-evidently second-rate reporting. Rather than question the accuracy of the Ugandan Daily Monitor you appear, alongside Melanie Nathan and Barry Duke, to have taken it as gospel truth, jumping to conclusions whilst repeatedly dismissing and denigrating everything that Paul Shinners has offered by way of explanation.
You allege that Paul has shown himself “to be dishonest and evasive” and yet you yourself have published the correspondence between him and Melanie in which he provides a perfectly clear explanation:
What, exactly, do you find so difficult to understand about that? I ask you the same questions that I have put to Melanie: why do you give more weight to a second-rate piece of journalism — that takes a quote out of context, doesn’t even spell the man’s name correctly and incorrectly assigns the honorific “Rev” to him — than you do to his explanation? Do the inaccuracies in the Daily Monitor‘s reporting not set alarm bells ringing for you — or would you rather overlook the shoddy reporting in order to pursue a witch hunt? Upon what basis do you demand explanations and hold Paul Shinners accountable to you?
No, Daniel, your approach to this situation has been entirely close-minded, you have all the information you need to acknowledge your error of judgment, but you flatly refuse to see it. You blog under the URL “time4change” and it is indeed time for change: time, specifically, for you to stop banging on with false allegations against Paul Shinners and to focus instead on your cause, to stop Uganda’s ‘Kill the Gays’ Bill.
If the Monitor article was wrong has he contacted them to print a retraction?
How is Uganda making a stand for god when they have such distorted interpretations of the bible? Christianity in Uganda has caused more damage than HIV and malaria.
Homophobia is not like arachnophobia! I don’t think he hides when he sees a gay person, but he has never denied that he thinks homosexuality is a sin!
My approach was entirely open-minded! How can you claim as a friend of Shinners to be unbiased.
I only wanted to make all the information available so the people of St. Neots can judge for themselves.
Where is the evidence of his innocence?
Welcome back, Daniel.
I’ve no idea whether or not Paul has been in touch with the DM, Daniel — you’d have to ask him or the DM about that; but the evidence of their sloppy journalism is right there in the article: why do you continue to disregard that fact?
Since I personally have no contacts or dealings with anyone in Uganda (at least none that I’m aware of: it may well be that some of facebook friends or twitter followers have Ugandan connections) I can’t address the question of how Uganda may or may not be making a stand for God; but I suspect from Paul’s perspective, an event such as their National Day of Prayer probably has something to do with it, an observation that I’m sure you’re perfectly capable of making yourself if only you’d take the time to be a little more reflective rather than automatically assuming the worst.
As for your claim that “Christianity in Uganda has caused more damage than HIV and malaria” — perhaps you’d care to quantify that? You do have evidence to back that up, I take it, or were you getting a little carried away by your enthusiasm?
Now on the question of homophobia: as your recent blog commenter has noted, the best source for a definition is probably Stonewall:
… and thus far neither you, Melanie Nathan nor Barry Duke have managed to evince any evidence whatsoever of such an attitude from Paul Shinners. The three of you taken hold of a self-evidently poorly produced piece of journalism and elevated it to the status of gospel truth. You’ve built your entire case on straw cemented together by your own fears and anxieties, then backed it up with allegations and assumptions that are entirely unwarranted at the same time as dismissing the man’s own statements.
You ask for evidence of innocence. I ask you: where is your evidence of guilt?
The Daily Monitor called him REV. his poster called him EV. (I assume meaning “EVANGELICAL”)
I’m sure you can forgive a mistake. The other names in the article were correct and other articles on their website are well written, informative and trustworthy
Does paul have any formal training in theology that would justify his frequent trips to Uganda to spread the gospel.
You seem to have a warped interpretation of what homophobia is! I don’t think Paul Shinners runs out of the room crying when he seen a gay person. I do think he thinks homosexuality is a sin, as his church acknowledges on their website.
How you can criticize the DM when the two links on the river church are so full of spelling mistakes and grammatical errors
IF YOU BELIEVE HOMOSEXUALITY IS A SIN, YOU ARE HOMOPHOBIC!!!
Would Anti-Gay be easier for you to understand.
I have had lots of dealings with people in Uganda and I know what christianity has done to the country. HIV has spread more than it should have, due to the churches rules on contraception. Africa used to accept homosexuality as part of their culture, but now they despise it to the point that homosexuals have to live in slums and are beaten, raped and murdered in the name of god.
Paul Shinners has visited Uganda for years, why is he apparently ignorant to their literal interpretation of the old testament.
Maybe you should question your unmovable faith in Paul Shinners before you start defending him.
You have shown yourself to be very ignorant and closeminded.
I’d say the honorific “Ev” is more likely to be an abbreviation for Evangelist, Daniel, since that was Paul’s role in Uganda: preaching the Gospel, and — as you know — on this particular occasion preaching about Jesus’ encounter with a woman caught in adultery who the religious leaders of the day wanted to stone to death; and Jesus countered that with a very simple response: “Let the one who is without sin cast the first stone.” The death penalty, then, has no place within Christianity; and Paul has stated quite explicitly that:
1. He does not support the Ugandan ‘Kill the Gays’ Bill;
2. He did not speak in support of the Bill;
3. His words have been quoted out of context;
4. He unreservedly repudiates homophobia.
Your response? Denigration, insults, accusations — and yet you somehow expect him to engage with you in dialogue? You dismiss everything Paul Shinners says, treat him with contempt, pour scorn upon his church — and then go on to heap similar abuse upon me, calling me a liar, ignorant and/or homophobic for no other reason than because I’ve challenged the veracity of a piece of shoddy journalism that presents one of my book trade colleagues as homophobic. Apparently if I don’t jump on board and condemn him as homophobic as well then I too must be homophobic.
Seriously, Daniel (Melanie and Barry too, if you happen to be reading), do you really consider this to be a constructive or reasonable approach to Paul, to me, or even to life in general?
You have every right to be angry at injustice and evil; and your concern for the LGBT community in Uganda is laudable. For some of us, that right perhaps even becomes a duty to be angry — the question, however, is how to deal with that; and simply berating and YELLING at those you perceive as your opponents is not constructive.
You may find this hard to believe, but we’re on the same side here. Do you think I attended the demo in St Neots as an observer? Far from it: I stood there in the Market Square in solidarity with the people that had organised the event and I signed the petition.
Let’s be clear about this: homophobia is wrong. I’ve already said that in my response to Melanie above, but I say it again for your benefit; and if you and Melanie had taken the time to do a little research rather than make unwarranted assumptions and jump to erroneous conclusions, you’d know full well where I stand and what I believe: visit my personal blog, philgroom.wordpress.com; find me on facebook; meet me on twitter — then come back with your eyes open…
Now, have you done that? Then we can continue…
Here’s my point, Daniel: homophobia is wrong; but false allegations of homophobia are also wrong — and when, as we see in Paul Shinners’ case — those allegations lead to disruptions of business, distress for workers and inconvenience for customers, they are doubly so.
The organisers of the demo in St Neots understood this and, as per my previous report, they relocated the demo to the Market Square and made a point of emphasising that it was not about Paul Shinners or Cornerstone but about showing support for LGBT people in Uganda by opposing the ‘Kill the Gays’ Bill.
You, however, have conspicuously failed to take this on board and have instead appointed yourself Grand Inquisitor, demanding answers and hurling abuse not only at Paul but at anyone who dares to challenge you.
But the fact is that were it not for Paul — were it not for the misreporting in the DM — you would have continued as you were, blithely unaware of the situation in Uganda.
Should you not, then, be thanking him rather than reviling him? Enough with the insults and accusations: they will get you nowhere. Turn around and I’ll meet you there, and I suspect you’ll also be pleasantly surprised by Paul’s response: in my experience (not that I know him well) he is not an unreasonable man.
I’ve already said this in a comment on your blog which you have yet to approve: if we can agree a mutually convenient date and time, I’ll gladly meet with you to chat things through face to face, ideally at Cornerstone in St Neots.
The coffee’s on me, and if your injury makes it difficult for you to travel under your own steam, I’ll pay for a taxi for you there and back (within the St Neots area, that is). Over to you.
Phil,
If you would please read my blog from the beginning i’m sure you will understand my position…
http://time4change2013.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/three-days-to-make-difference.html
[Excessive links removed - Blog Admin]
I’m sure you can understand my desire for answers.
You admit you don’t know him very well, yet you judge him as good and me as bad without contacting me first.
Why do you assume i know nothing about or have no ties to Uganda.
You accuse me of being part of a “homophobia smear campaign”
Do you not think you owe me an apology?
I contacted Paul but got nowhere. I hoped that he was a good, honest christian and was only acting defensively. I was genuinely trying to help not only the people of Uganda but Paul himself.
I hope you will understand why i reacted the way i did. I would gladly meet with you and Paul to discuss the situation.
If you read my blog (and the comments) from the beginning, i’m sure you’ll agree that my actions are perfectly reasonable.
Thank you
Daniel, first of all, please note that posting a string of links as you did is generally known as spamming; I’ve therefore removed them except for the first one. As a general rule I allow up to two links per comment, but please note that no further links to your blog will be permitted in this conversation: you have posted more than enough of them already and most of what you say on your blog is openly abusive. I will regard any further such links as spam and treat them as such. Please read the site’s Comments Policy before posting any further responses.
Second, giving the “thumbs up” to your own comments is narcissistic: please don’t do it. It distorts the impression given to other readers (and please don’t deny doing it: as I type this reply, your comment is in the moderation queue; you and I are the only ones who can see it and I can see what you have done).
Now, to your specific remarks: it is quite evident from your blog — especially your most recent posts, in which you rail not only at Paul but at anyone who challenges you — that you are engaging in a smear campaign. From the outset your posts have been accusatory in nature and they have gone from accusatory to outright vilification as you have found yourself unable to get your own way: your behaviour resembles that of a child throwing a temper tantrum. Far from attempting to help Paul, you have set out to undermine him and his ministry at every opportunity, then attempted to mitigate that scurrilous behaviour with disingenuous remarks about him being innocent until proven guilty whilst making it plain that you do regard him as guilty.
And you have done all this without qualm and without any sign of the slightest concern for the damage your behaviour and that of others who have campaigned against him has done to his reputation or that of his business, let alone the distress caused to his employees and others involved with Cornerstone.
So no, I do not believe I owe you an apology, and no, I do not regard the way you have conducted yourself as reasonable: quite the opposite, in fact.
Nonetheless, my offer to meet with you remains open: you can contact me here to arrange a mutually convenient date & time if you so wish.
The Hunts Post article “St Neots cafe owner demands apology from bloggers over “defamatory” comments” is inaccurate. There is no denying that fact, yet you used it on your blog to attack my character as someone on a witch hunt without contacting me first or even reading my blog!
You reference the article above, but it is wrong. Both Melanie Nathan and Barry Duke say he never contacted them about an apology.
My point is that if Paul Shinners has been shown to be a liar than i can no longer take him at his word AND NEITHER SHOULD YOU
If you can take the time to make defamatory statements against me why did you not first look at all the information on the links on my blog before making incorrect assumptions about me or my motives?
You have still not apologized.
Well the bit about Paul “demanding” an apology looks to be incorrect, Daniel, though he has certainly called for one. Whether or not he wrote to Melanie & Barry with a specific request to apologise is immaterial: they have clearly received the request as both of them have hit back on their blogs by digging their heels in and offering further vilification.
I suspect that despite all the posturing to the contrary, neither of them are the type to willingly offer an apology without legal action to force it: like you, they’ve made up their minds and once such minds are made up, one might as well beat one’s head against a brick wall.
I only posted the links so you could see i wasn’t being unreasonable not “spamming”.
If you were open and honest i would be grateful if you uncensor my comment. I have nothing to hide and i hope you don’t to. You talk about distorting the impression to other readers but censor me? Spamming is hardly a justifiable explanation.
I don’t think accusing me of being a “child throwing a temper tantrum” is a very mature response to all the information i had posted.
You are not being very objective and i wish you would turn your overly critical eye at the journalism of the hunts post. Did they not print inaccuracies on 28th January based on Paul Shinners statements?
Your comment hasn’t been censored, Daniel: I’ve simply removed the excessive linking in accordance with my Comments Policy: as stated, you have posted more than enough links to your blog already. Please do not take umbrage or be disingenuous about this.
I’m not aware of any inaccuracies in the Hunts Post reporting: would you care to clarify?
Hi DB, perhaps you are jumping to some conclusions without thinking things through.
Why did you give up the assumption that Paul Shinners was innocent? Failing to explain something does not make a person guilty.
Your opinion is that everything you said in your blog is accurate, but I can’t see much there that is accurate. I took a thorough look at it last night and it seems to be mostly unsupported allegations against various people and organisations. I notice they now include Phil Groom.
It’s a free country and you can write whatever you like as long as it’s not libellous or defamatory. But I’ve noticed people often respond more openly when I’m polite and reasonable towards them.
I hope you have a good and peaceful day,
Chris J
Why did Paul Shinners say that it was my fault for not contacting him when he was definitely aware of it while still in Uganda. Why would an innocent man be so defensive, evasive and outright lie to the Hunts Post?
It’s a free country as long as you don’t go around inciting genocide.
How can you expect me to look at the facts and draw any other conclusion?
My point was proven when a homophobic christian anonymously posted on my blog.
Why do you assume he is INNOCENT despite his lies and unwillingness to state his position.
For latest Updates on Ugandas anti-homosexuality bill…
http://time4change2013.blogspot.co.uk/
The bible is not meant to be take literally, if you think every word of the old testament applies today you are part of a cult.
If you look at the links on the River Church website, you can see that they’re hastily written and have a sick and twisted immoral interpretation of the bible.
As i’m sure you are well aware i have had a terrible day full of pain and agony. I hope you are just ignorant and blinded by the lies and fake smile, and not actively helping cover up Shinners utterly disgraceful, UNchristian, willfully ignorant actions.
I’ve yet to see any clear evidence that you are looking at the facts, Daniel. Your conclusions seem to be based largely on assumptions, anger, and a lot of arm-waving.
I understand why, I’m sympathetic to any effort to save life or protest against the death penalty, I signed the Avaaz petition against the Ugandan bill soon after I heard of it. However, I am not sympathetic to attacks of the kind that have been aimed at Paul Shinners, Cornerstone, River Church, Phil Groom, and likely me next. You are alienating more and more people who probably agree with you on some important points.
Looking at the correspondence so far, noting Paul’s clear responses, and Phil’s equally clear and detailed comments, I can come to only one conclusion – you are not listening.
Paul has been attacked and hounded relentlessly by people (including you) who have never met him, have misunderstood his actions, make assumptions about his motives and reject sound reasoning.
Chris,
Thank you for signing the petition. You seem to have gravely misjudged me, like you claim i have done regarding Paul Shinners.
Paul has given NO clear response to me, avoided meeting me and then wouldn’t answer a few questions and deflected them with the promise of a statement in the next few days (which was weeks ago). Why won’t you acknowledge that?
Can you tell me what Paul has done to help the people of Uganda? Have you contacted him to ask the questions i asked him? At the very least could you ask him if he has ever heard of or met Pastor Martin Ssempa?
Regardless of his actions and statements in the UK, his PRO DEATH PENALTY STANCE regarding homosexual acts still stands in Uganda (whether rightly or wrongly reported). I have yet to see a retraction by the Ugandan Monitor.
You have misinterpreted my actions. Please read my blog more carefully. I have only acted defensively when attacked myself.
River church’s own website claims to accept a fundamentalist interpretation of the bible (i.e. Homosexuality is a SIN), making them a ANTI-GAY CHURCH. They say that all sin is punishable by death!
You and Phil have picked Melanie up on many points, but neither of you have denied that River Church is a CULT, why not?
Someone defending River Church on the comments of one of my blog posts said that Homosexuality is a sin and a disease and Christianity is the cure. I hope you don’t agree with these sentiments!
Chris READ MY LIPS!!!! Paul Shinners admits his remarks to me in an email to me. What he now fails to do is say what he meant by the word PLAN.
That is what he has avoided. Shinners’ issued a statement that he is not homophobic. However while he has admitted making the remarks at the rally, he has failed to provide specific answers to the questions regarding what his remarks meant, the most important of which is what he meant by the word “PLAN” if he was not referring to the Anti-Homosexuality Bill:-
“There is no other nation world over that has such a plan and through this, Uganda is going to be blessed,” Said Rev. Paul Shinners.
SHINNERS SHARES RALLY EVENT WITH ANTI-GAY PASTORS:
Bishop David Kiganda, (who you can see on the same poster as Shinners and who heads the Rally ) was one of the pastors spearheading the call for the anti-gay bill, and while sharing the event stage with Shinners and others, noted in his New Year’s rally speech:
“We ask Members of Parliament to stop wasting time debating the Bill but simply pass it to save school-going children, who are at risk of being recruited. Our leaders should desist from any act that would frustrate this proposed law…”
It would take a great deal for Shinners to explain his way out of his own remark, given this context and the use of the word “PLAN.” His feeble statement failed miserably. Many e-mail requests later from Melanie Nathan, Barry Duke and DB Law, Shinners has yet to deny his words or explain what they meant.
So instead of attempting to set the record straight, Shinners’ strategy was to attack the messengers, Melanie Nathan – me – and another blogger Barry Duke for exposing his anti-gay tirade. Shinners cried foul and played victim when he was exposed and tried to manipulate the U.K.local press into believing that Nathan and Duke had defamed him. He told the press that he had asked us for apologies, which was a blatant lie. He never did. However even if he had, defamation can only be found if something is untruthful, and Shinners has yet to deny his easily proved remarks.
NOW he owes us an apology . He should just come clean – apologize and and put his seemingly (er..if true) newly found pro-diverse human sexuality stance to good use – to help change hearts and minds. That is where this can go and that is if he is a true Christian!
Melanie, I have yet to read anything edifying or accurate from you. Is there any point in going through your comment above in detail? None. Phil Groom has already been through the arguments for you but you are clearly not willing to listen.
‘Making a mountain out of a mole hill’ is an appropriate metaphor, it could hardly better fit your approach to Paul Shinners. What you have done was carelessly hurtful and harmful, I hope not deliberately so. But it is hurting and harming your own cause far more than it damages Paul.
If at the beginning you had simply and politely asked him to clarify his reason for going to speak in Uganda and asked for his view about the death penalty you might have has a useful conversation and some help. But no, you just began accusing him in a particularly unpleasant way.
If someone was to throw rotten eggs at you, Melanie, would you be inclined to stay and talk or would you walk around the nearest corner and stay out of sight? If Paul has stopped trying to communicate I can hardly blame him! It would be plain common sense.
Chris do you have any response to my last comment to you?
I have clearly misjudged you. I thought you had a mind of your own.
Your silence speaks volumes!!!
First things first, Daniel (is that your name?)
I’m sorry to hear that you ‘had a terrible day full of pain and agony’. Can you tell me why? Are you ill or injured? I don’t understand why you think I would already know this, please explain.
All I know about you so far is that you sign yourself ‘DB Law’ and Phil Groom replied to you as ‘Daniel’. And of course I’m aware of your opinions and accusations from your time4change blog and your comments here.
Do you live in the local area? I’m in St Neots.
Hoping today is better for you,
Chris
I assumed you had read my blog, I mentioned why in one of my emails to Paul Shinners.
If you read my blog from the first post on the 1st Feb to the latest, i’m sure you’ll agree that my questions and intrest are entirely justified:-
http://time4change2013.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/three-days-to-make-difference.html
I don’t want to be doing what i’m doing. I should be resting, but i cannot in good conscience do nothing while the truth remains shrouded in deception an misdirection.
I only want the truth and if Paul Shinners isn’t homophobic what is he doing about the Anti-homosexuality bill that will likely be discussed in the Ugandan parliament TODAY!!!
http://time4change2013.blogspot.co.uk/
Please can someone who knows Paul Shinners get some clear answers, because he won’t talk to anyone else
Updated Shinners owes me and the Gay community an apology. Headmits his remarks BUT does not clarify nor explain remarks in Uganda AGAIN NOTE – he has failed to clarify the use of the words, while never denying actually making the statement. Read my latest BLOG 2/20
Bishop David Kiganda, (who you can see on the same poster as Shiners and who heads the Rally ) was one of the pastors spearheading the call for the anti-gay bill, and while sharing the event stage with Shinners and others
Read on…. http://oblogdeeoblogda.me/2013/02/20/st-neots-u-k-preacher-paul-shinners-has-yet-to-answer-questions-about-his-anti-gay-remarks/
Thanks for the link, Melanie: you have my response there, though you have yet to authorise my further response, which is as follows:
I’m quite puzzled by your attitude: you lambast Paul Shinners for not answering your questions, but you show a cavalier disregard and open contempt for any questions sent your way. It seems to be a case of one rule for you, another rule for everyone else. That, Melanie, is hypocrisy of the highest order.
Hey I gave my own remarks a thumbs down does that mean I am not narcissistic – I mean really who cares. Instead of denigrating DB Laws with our holier than thou form of abuse. Take a look at the hard facts. 1. Shinner made remarks that are on the record that he has admitted to me and yet will not answer my questions as to what he meant when he used the word PLAN in the context of the stage shared with others who made clear what the PLAN in fact was. THE AHB – The Kill The Gays Bill! And if Shiners feels the way you believe he does – then why has he and YOU for that matter done nothing to try and help combat this human rights travesty? NOTHING!!!!!!
*sigh* … no, Melanie, it just means you’re being childish; but hey — who cares, right? As it happens, I do: no, not about people playing games in order to make their own posts look popular: that’s a piffling matter, as you say. What I care about in this particular instance is the arrogant and careless way in which you conduct yourself, not giving a damn about the impact your blogging has had upon Paul, his business, employees and customers. No indeed: you are right and everyone else is wrong — “holier than thou abuse” indeed; pot, kettle, black, anyone?
Now, hard facts: you place an awful lot of weight on one word, don’t you? But then, when you’re attempting to build a case on (and this is getting really boring, but I guess it has to be repeated or you’ll never get it) something as flimsy as a single quote taken out of context in a shoddy piece of writing that can’t even spell Paul’s name right and incorrectly assigns him the title ‘Rev’ — when you’ve decided a priori that anything Paul says isn’t worth listening to — then I guess you’ll clutch at any straw that presents itself. Seriously, Melanie, I hope you do better than this when you’re representing clients in your Private Courts, as this type of mudslinging campaign certainly wouldn’t stand up in a court of law unless it happened to be one that you, Daniel or Barry Duke were presiding over.
Think about it: what was the event Paul was taking part in? Uganda’s National Day of Prayer, an event that has been held annually over several years and which Paul evidently sees as a tremendous opportunity to proclaim the gospel, in this instance preaching about Jesus’ encounter with a woman caught in adultery who the religious leaders of the day wanted to stone to death; and Jesus countered that with a very simple response: “Let the one who is without sin cast the first stone.” The death penalty, then, has no place within Christianity — and I’m sure you’ve read my earlier reply to Daniel, so I won’t repeat myself further.
My guess, and it is only a guess, is that the plan Paul was referring to was the plan to hold these days of prayer. But I guess that’s too obvious for you: no, in your distorted view of the world, there must be something devious going on.
Wake up, Melanie: not everyone takes as jaundiced a view of life as you do. Time to move on, isn’t it?
Having said, Melanie, that I’m sure you’ve read my earlier reply to Daniel, I now realise that either (a) you haven’t or (b) you’ve disregarded it — because if you had taken it into account, you wouldn’t ask
I can’t speak for Paul but here’s my own contribution to the cause, as stated in that reply to Daniel:
Once again, Melanie: perhaps a little more attention to detail and a little less blagging it would be helpful to all concerned. Sadly, I think Chris is right when he says you are not willing to listen; either that, or you only listen to what you want to hear — and that really isn’t the way to engage people in dialogue.
Phil in the interest or fairness and openness could you please allow my comments to be shown. I have followed the guidelines you outlined to me previously
Daniel, please stop jumping to conclusions: your comments were identified as spam by Akismet, the WordPress spam filter. There is nothing devious going on here: I’ve been offline for the last 16 hours or so, and I’m not in the habit of checking the spammed comments — there are simply too many of them and 99.9% of the time, Akismet gets it right.
I’m aware of them now because you brought them to my attention on Melanie’s blog: thank you.
Wow – what an incredibly sad string of arguments. As a relative newcomer to this whole story I cannot believe the fuss that has been made of something so obviously incorrectly reported in Uganda, picked up by one US based blogger and blown out of all proportion. Mt Shiners has categorically denied the allegations and has then very sensibly kept his head down because there is absolutely nothing to be gained by engaging with two people who are so obviously determined to rant and rave at whatever he says.
As an example of how a story can be totally taken out of context and twisted let me write a few words “Today self styled political activist Melanie Nathan shared a website forum with Christian bookshop owner Phil Groom to discuss the abuse being suffered by St Neots Bookshop owner Paul Shinners. Melanie wrote with reference to Paul Shinners ” he is not homophobic”, whilst blogger DB Law stated ‘He is innocent”.
All entirely true and 100% accurate – as I am sure the original article was..
There we go – maybe that will put some perspective on events in December and allow us to get back to really important things such as spending time lobbying the UK, Commonwealth and EU political systems to make a firm stand against this terrible bill.
Thanks Jack. One minor inaccuracy in that little summary: I’m not a Christian bookshop owner. I worked in the Christian book trade for ten years as a bookshop manager; I’m now an independent commentator and news reporter on the trade. Otherwise, however, very neatly done
I didn’t say he’s innocent. I said innocent until proven guilty… and he is clearly guilty.
Paul Stands by his comments in Uganda but dismisses them in the UK with one vague statement. The Monitor article is factually accurate and Paul Shinners has not denied this, only claimed to not be “homophobic”.
By Phil Groom’s definition you can still support the “Kill the Gays” bill and still claim not to be homophobic.
Paul has deliberately done nothing to distinguish himself from the other PRO DEATH PENALTY Evangelicals in Uganda. Why?
He has shown himself to be completely dishonest, unchristian and deceitful in my interactions with him.
For an honest, unbiased examination of the facts i hope that any good, charitable, open-minded christian would please read my blog before accepting this propaganda as an accurate representation of the truth.
River church completely redesigned their website and made the sermons inaccessible since i mentioned them on my blog. What do they have to hide if they’re not a cult?
Daniel wrote:
Hmm. Does it indeed? I’ve come to the conclusion that there is little or no point in endlessly going over the same ground. I’m disengaging. Bye!
So you concede that i am correct?
As you have provided no proof that Paul is innocent, it must mean that there is none.
He said he would explain his position, but has not. He promised me a statement weeks ago, but where is it?
You have given me NO REASON or EVIDENCE to believe that Paul Shinners is not a homophobic, religious extremist who supports the death penalty in Uganda for homosexuals.
Yes, your silence really does speak volumes!!!
Daniel, after your latest batch of abusive comments — most of which I have now marked as spam — I have come, regrettably, to the conclusion that you are a troll of the first order: it is abundantly clear that you have nothing constructive to say and that you are unwilling to engage in reasonable debate or to listen to any viewpoint other than your own.
You misrepresent and twist other people’s comments, jump to unwarranted conclusions, make false accusations, and whenever your pernicious remarks are challenged, you adopt an air of self-righteous indignation as if you were the person who had been wronged, then shout and bluster all the more loudly. You go round and round in circles, endlessly repeating the same arguments and allegations whilst showing a blatant disregard for common courtesy and this site’s Comments Policy.
In your desperate clamour to prove Paul Shinners’ supposed bigotry, you have become the very thing you claim to despise: a bigoted fanatic.
Chris has, quite sensibly, bowed out of an increasingly meaningless conversation. This does not imply that he concedes that you are correct: to the contrary, it suggests that he has become tired of banging his head against the brick wall of your intransigence.
There’s an old saying: Do not feed the troll. The time has come to apply it: there is no more food for you here, Daniel — goodbye.
Should you wish to rejoin the conversation in person, however, my offer to meet up with you at Cornerstone remains open: you have my contact details.